A New POV on Employee Engagement w/ Michael Esau (Global HR Advisor at SAP SuccessFactors)

Four years—that’s currently how long the typical employee sticks around before looking for new opportunities. But it wasn't always this way and median employee tenure has dropped 10.9% since 2012. The idea of staying with the same company for an entire career is a thing of the past thanks to high-profile layoffs, technological advancements, the rise of the gig economy and a renewed focus on work-life balance. People are starting to question the basic nature of employee loyalty so it makes sense that a new perspective is required.

Michael Esau, SAP's Global HR Advisor, joins JD Dillon to explain why organizations must shift their focus from loyalty to advocacy. We’ll explore how a strong advocacy program can enhance a company's brand reputation, attract top talent and create a more engaged, dynamic and productive workplace culture—even after employees inevitably leave.

Whether you're an HR leader, a manager or simply interested in the future of work, this episode will provide you with actionable insights on harnessing the power of advocacy to transform your employee engagement strategies.

• Watch the full video of this episode plus past ITKs on the Axonify YouTube Channel.
• Listen to The Human Factor Podcast from SAP. 
• Read 6 Workplace Trends Leaders Should Watch in 2024 from Gallup. 
• Review the Employee Tenure in 2022 Report from the BLS.
• Subscribe for ITK updates and show announcements at axonify.com/itk.
• Grab a copy of JD’s book - The Modern Learning Ecosystem - at jdwroteabook.com.

For more about why Axonify is the proven employee enablement solution that equips frontlines with the essential tools to learn, connect and get things done, visit axonify.com.

Transcript

JD Dillon (00:25):
Hi friends, how are you doing today? It's great to see you. Welcome to the 45th episode of In The Know, your 25-minute deep dive into the modern employee experience and what we can do to make it better. I'm JD from Axonify, and today's show, it's all about loyalty. Now, what's the longest relationship that you've ever had? And I'm not just talking about dating or marriage, what's something that you've stuck with for a long, long time? For me, it's the Philadelphia Flyers. Now, they've won absolutely nothing since I've been alive, but it's my hometown team. So I'm loyal to the Orange and Black, no matter how frustrating or soul-crushing it can be sometimes. Now, I could have walked away after the 97 sweep to Detroit, but I stuck with it because they bring me more joy than sadness. And the harder they try, the more loyal I am to them.
(01:14):
And that loyalty is worth the investment in time and attention, and in some cases, in money—although this jersey's from the nineties original starter. That's the thing about loyalty. It's a two-way deal. Now, if I'm loyal to a friend and I make the effort to be there when they need me, it's fair for me to expect them to do the same, right? Maybe they don't support me in the exact same way, but it's the spirit. It has the same meaning. It's about the willingness, the connection, the fairness and the equity within a relationship. That's what fosters loyalty. But the question becomes, how does this whole thing work at work? Because it's easy to see the value that loyal employees bring to an organization in terms of hard work, reliability, commitment. But what do loyal employees get in this relationship? Do they get paid better?
(02:05):
Do they have more opportunity? Do they have more stability? Or is the relationship at work a bit too one-sided to even consider loyalty as a realistic idea in today's workplace? Well, today's ITK guest is going to help us answer these questions and form a whole new perspective on the meaning of employee engagement. Michael Esau, Global HR Advisor, SAP SuccessFactors and host of the Human Factor Podcast, is here to help us understand why it's time to move beyond employee loyalty and instead focus on building workplace advocates. But before we invite our ITK guest to join us around the fireplace, the virtual fireplace, for a chat, I'd like to take a moment to say thanks to our loyal ITK Watchers and listeners out there. Last Friday was employee appreciation day, and that got me thinking about what we do here at ITK, and, most importantly, the millions of people from around the world who tune in to hear our stories.
(02:58):
And by millions of people, I mean several thousand people who watch the show live on LinkedIn or catch the recordings on YouTube or the ITK podcast. I've been hosting the show for a long time, and I really appreciate you for spending 25 minutes with us every two weeks. Our goal is to give you real-world practical insights and ideas you can apply on the job and have fun while doing it because we don't just want to talk about theory, belabor the past or theorize what the future may be. Instead, we want to help you bring the future to life and make sure that the people within your organization get the help they need to do their very best work every day. So with this being the 45th episode, I thought it'd be a good time to look back on some of the insights that have been shared by our guests who do amazing things within their organizations.
(03:44):
So here are five of my top ITK insights so far. We're going to start by going all the way back to October 12th, 2022, when we met Tom and Jeff from Heinen's Grocery Store. Episode 15 focused on the frontline labor shortage, and Tom and Jeff explained the importance of cross-training and making sure their employees or their stores were staffed properly while adding variety and opportunity to the frontline work experience. When speaking to the needs and interests of today's workforce, Jeff emphasized that people are looking for challenges. They're looking for versatility. They want to try different things. So this idea of cross-training was making people more excited about coming in every day and getting to experience something new. And that's really the power that cross-training has as a talent enablement and retention strategy. That's my number five observation. At number four. We are jumping ahead to August 9th, 2023, when Cara North stopped by to talk about her new book, “Learning Experience Design Essentials,” and of everything Cara shared during our highly spirited debate, as you can tell by just looking at that thumbnail, her perspective on how AI's impacting L&D specifically the roles of instructional designers and content developers was key.
(04:55):
And Cara made clear that anyone who builds digital content, especially templated or transactional content, needs to start evolving the roles now. Otherwise, they're at high risk of being replaced by emerging technology. As someone who applies AI in my everyday work, I totally agree with Cara. My third favorite insight takes us to the start of this year when we met Daniel and John from Merck, who helped us navigate the constant push and pull of highly regulated workplace training. They emphasized a key point which is the reality that time is money when it comes to workplace training. And as John said, if I push an hour-long training to a lot of people, that could have been a pull activity. Instead, that's 500 employees, 500 hours of productivity that's been consumed. So we need to be super diligent about how we use people's time because it's our company's most valuable resource.
(05:48):
My second favorite insight comes from our conversation with Dara from Jumeirah Hotels and Resorts. During Episode 41 last fall, Dara explained how she thinks about employee onboarding—just like it's a visit to a hotel. It's an experience, not just a transaction. Dara highlighted Jumeirah’s use of pre-arrival learning paths to kickstart the experience the right way, so new hires already have an understanding of the company and its culture, before they even walk through the door. But my favorite ITK Insight so far comes from Episode 40. In our meeting with Sam from Cardinal Health, Sam dropped a critical nugget of perspective at the very end of the conversation that should really inform how every L&D and HR professional approaches their work, especially during a time of significant change. Sam said, “A leader once told me, and it's forever resonated, that we should be business people who happen to specialize in HR and L&D.
(06:41):
Put your business foot forward first, and then we can wrap your profession around that.” And that, my friends, is the answer to the age-old question, how do I get a seat at the table? And that's just a quick summary of five great insights we've picked up over our time together here on ITK. So, of course, if you want to check out all the full stories that I just mentioned, briefly head over to the Axonify YouTube channel or listen along by subscribing to the In The Know podcast on your favorite podcast app. But now, let's continue our legacy of great ITK insights with our special guest, Michael Esau. Michael is a Global HR Advisor at SAP SuccessFactors, where he’s spent the past 10 years working with companies across multiple industries as they embark on organizational change and transformation programs. Prior to joining SAP, Michael spent 20 years helping individuals and organizations be the best they can be every day in a career that has spanned several industries and sectors. Michael is also co-host of the Human Factor podcast, which explores topics and themes influencing the world of work, including communication, well-being, leadership, culture and more. He's joining us live from his home near Manchester, England and the United Kingdom. Michael Esau, you're In The Know, how are you doing?
Michael Esau (07:50):
Very good. Thank you for having me, JD. And I really enjoyed your top five. Really enjoyed it. 
JD Dillon (07:56):
Thank you. I'm proud of it as well. Had to watch a lot of myself talking in order to get those key insights back in conversations. You think I would take better notes during the show, but learning as I go, learning as I go. Let's start the conversation on today's topic. I don't want to start on the wrong foot, but I've got some worries. So it seems we can't go a day without hearing about a big layoff announcement. And then, on top of that, as I mentioned earlier in my top five, we have these concerns around AI and digital transformation impacting jobs. And then, on top of that, I read some Gallup research recently that said global workplace stress is at an all-time high. So my question for you is, in this setting and the current world of work, why do you think companies should expect employees to be loyal right now? Is the notion of loyalty realistic? And was it ever realistic? What are your thoughts?
Michael Esau (08:51):
Listen, I mean, you opened up by showing your shirt and your love of your sports team. I've supported my team for over 40 years and am loyal to them. What does that mean? It's unconditional love. I don't expect anything. I don't expect an outcome. I just give them my support. Now when it comes to the workplace, I think it's more conditional. Is loyalty realistic? Yes, I think it is. We’ll delve into why I think that is. The problem at the moment is we're in a vortex of change and so much disruption, and there's no getting away from it, JD, that you are going to bite and impinge on how somebody's feeling about your organization when it comes under stress. I think that is human nature. How each individual determines what they do will vary on their own individual circumstance.
(09:52):
But let's go back a couple of years, we saw people leaving organizations through the pandemic without another job to go to. So they were making a determination that, is this the organization I wish to be part of that I feel loyal to, yay or nay? And in a lot of cases, it was, ‘No, I don't.’ And I think that is going now to continue. The word I wrote down on my pad today when I was preparing was brittle. It's really brittle, it's soft, it's easily going to break. But is it realistic? Yeah, you should aspire towards it.
JD Dillon (10:28):
So if you think there's a brittleness taking place in terms of that relationship between the organization and the employee, given all of the different factors at play, do you think there's potentially a risk or a challenge that comes with it when it comes to how much focus we put on loyalty? Can making loyalty the goal cause a problem for an organization, as well as for employees?
Michael Esau (10:52):
I think, for some time, I've used the term ‘organizational health.’ What are the indicators that an organization has at its disposal that give the impression of whether we're healthy or we're not? Now those indicators will vary, right? Retention. Percentage of absence. What's your mix in terms of internal versus external. Whatever metric you use to measure, is it engagement, is it advocacy? Whatever it may be, you need to do that. You have to do that. I think if you're not, so coming back to your point though, if we put too much emphasis, but if you don't have that finger on the pulse if you have no notion of whether you're healthy or not, your people are really expensive as an asset. The wage bill, the salary bill is enormous in some organizations. So if you are not mindful of the commitment to that asset, the most important asset, then I don’t know what else you're focusing on, being really candid.
JD Dillon (11:52):
Absolutely. And I think there's a notion out there, and I believe the vast majority of people that we're speaking with, we want people to enjoy their jobs. We want them to be invested in their work. Typically, we also want people to stay, especially if they're enjoying what they're doing, doing great work for the organization and acting in a way that benefits the company. But what's interesting for me is I pulled some data specifically around US tenure. And the truth is that people don't stay for long, and they haven't for a while. So right now, the average tenure, at least according to 2022 numbers, is 4.1 years, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And then there are various organizations, especially those that work with frontline heavy employee bases, that often have regular turnover anywhere from 60% to sometimes over a hundred percent.
(12:38):
So my question becomes, if loyalty is already a limited sum game where people only stay for so long, and the idea of kind of a 30, 40-year career still exists, but it's not the norm by any means at this point, just based on organizations working on and how people work, how do we need to rethink the employee company relationship in a different way? And you've mentioned a keyword already, that idea of is it about loyalty or is it about advocacy? So I'd like your perspective on what the difference is between trying to build loyal employees and then trying to foster employee advocates.
Michael Esau (13:15):
Labels get in the way sometimes, don't they? I've had this debate also about tenure, and it's almost like, what's the point? What's the point? Well, there is a big point. I was reading a lovely social media post this morning of an organization that basically says it's part of our role to enable people to follow their dreams. And at some point, they will leave us, and that's okay as long as we've contributed, but hopefully, when they leave, they'll look back and go, were they good for me? And was I happy now? When that happens and that occurs, you have the opportunity for that person then to become an advocate. That's where there's the difference for me is between advocacy and loyalty. With loyalty, you support, I'm a supporter. I'm a supporter, maybe of a retail brand or my sports team.
(14:15):
I'm a supporter, but am I a proactive, vocal, animated champion? No, not necessarily. But I think when you start to get to the world of advocacy, it's different. It's the sentiment, the feeling that you have. Now, let's go back to your original question about the tenure dropping. This is a moving feast. If we were having this conversation 10 years ago, our point of view would be completely different. Again, I don't want to get into generational debates, heaven forbid, but I think one thing we have to do is look at the impact of consumerization on the world of work. So as a modern-day consumer, I'm spoiled. I'm really spoiled. I've got access to so many different experiences. But what it also means, though, is I expect a lot, and I don't really have any patience. Now people have a thirst for different experiences, and they're not afraid to go and get them.
(15:25):
It's much more of a transient workforce, a mobile workforce. I was looking at some data from Boston Consulting Group going back to 2014, when they interviewed over 200,000 job seekers. They're not afraid to go and work anywhere in the world if that experience is there. So I think you've almost got to accept that. That's just part of the deal. That's just part of the time where we are now. But those four years should be the best four years. They absolutely should. And, we may come to this in just a second, how do organizations engender it? 

JD Dillon (16:02):
What you just said aligns with something I've always said when I've been a manager of a team, one of the first things I say to someone who works with me is, my job is to prepare you for the next job. And I don't particularly care if that job is here, great. If it's here, if there's an opportunity within this function, or you go to another function within the organization, super, if that's what works for you, or if that next opportunity is elsewhere, I equally want to prepare you for that. That's the benefit you get out of this relationship in addition to doing what we need you to do as an organization that's more of that kind of fair trade and equitable relationship I talked about earlier. And that connects me to one of my favorite business quotes for all the right reasons that you've probably seen flying around on LinkedIn recently: “What if we train them and they leave?” and then someone responds, “Well, what if we don't and they stay?” My favorite thing about the quote is, one, how obvious that assessment is, and two, how that quote's attributed to 19 different thought leaders and has probably never been said by anybody. 

Michael Esau (17:11):
I've heard it considered a few times.
JD Dillon (17:14):
It's a great sentiment. But it's one of those funny memes in business that flies around. Anyway, back to our main point. When we talk about ramping up a focus on advocacy, what's the benefit for the organization? Why should I take my eyes off what we were trying to build employee loyalties as the basis of our engagement strategy? Have I been considering advocacy, and why should I?
Michael Esau (17:38):
Let's just take a moment, though, to think about what this actually means in a nutshell. And then we’ll get to the, “Wouldn't it be great if that, when somebody leaves an organization, they are an advocate for life?” They're going to champion you, they're going to talk positively about you. They're going to be part of your alumni, they're going to become part of your PR machine. Why would you not want that question? So for me, that's obvious, there are only upsides to that. The question, however, is, what are you going to do to make that happen? And that is the problem. You and I were debating and sparring a little bit in terms of whether we are going to look at shiny new things here today or look in the rearview mirror and maybe look to the past.
(18:40):
And I am going to look to the past. I think, JD, one of the biggest issues today, and I often do this with HR leaders sometimes when I meet them, I'll say, if I joined you tomorrow, what could I expect? And they don't always know. And therein lies the problem. Loyalty comes when the organization, or whatever it may be, is making a commitment. A commitment is a promise. That's what I'm expecting, and that's what happens. Therefore, I believe you and I connect to it. I've made a conscious decision, by the way, from my own values that I actually want to be part of that. Now, that's the employee value proposition. We've been talking about EVP for 30 to 40 years. Now, for me, that is a staple, 101, basic, fundamental, right? Are you clear on what the proposition is philosophically in this organization and how it will manifest?
(19:48):
And then how then the individual then can connect to that? The problem for me is when that proposition doesn't materialize, doesn't manifest, doesn't happen, guess what happens? I don't believe you. I don't feel connected to you. You've lost my loyalty now. And I was thinking about some analogies today of somebody going to a phenomenal restaurant because the other problem with this is I'm a consumer, so I expect a lot. So I go to a restaurant, it's a great restaurant. The booking, the greeting, the ambiance, the initial waiter took my order and told me about the specials. The menu was great. The quality of the food was amazing. But you know what? The service was incredibly slow. Incredibly, I mean, awful. And based on that alone, I won't return. I won't go back. And that's part of the problem now in terms of organizations and that brittleness, if a piece of the jigsaw is missing, that can break it. I think then, all of a sudden, where does the onus lie? Well, massively on the role of the leader, a lot sits on their shoulder.
JD Dillon (21:04):
One of my most common tips for people who are looking for new roles is that they go talk to people who used to work there and used to work in the function, which is pretty easy to find for most types of jobs now, thanks to LinkedIn and whatnot. Because if you talk to just the recruiting machine, there's a lot of marketing happening in that conversation. You're getting a sense of what the world should be because they're recruiting as they are. And then, if you talk to people in the role or in the company, you might start to hit up against politics and who likes who. And that's where loyalty might start to take a turn in a direction where maybe it's not beneficial to you if you're trying to figure out, does this organization fit me right now? But that's why I always say, go talk to the people who used to be here who are still not so far removed.
(21:54):
They don't know what the company's like now, but maybe they recently departed and started to ask questions about what it's really like. And I think that's where advocacy becomes a huge part of the conversation because maybe this job isn't a fit for me anymore or not right now, and I need to go, but it doesn't mean I hate you or doesn't mean I'm right. My connection's still there. The comparison I would make is that I think I've been an advocate for the Walt Disney company since birth at this point, and it's been almost 10 years since I left the company formally. I still get questions consistently about what the experience was like, and then I post job openings on LinkedIn, and if I post something from Disney, I'm likely to get a question from someone who's interested in that role about the experience of working there. And I still speak fondly of that experience. So I'm curious, and you mentioned it a bit already. You mentioned the importance of managers. We've talked about HR. Whose job is advocacy? Is this an HR program? Is this an everybody thing? Who needs to be thinking about this?
Michael Esau (22:56):
Okay, so I was debating this at length yesterday. There are multiple parts to this. So if we look at the advent of technology today, it is so advanced that, for me, the future role of HR is fourfold. One, they need to become amazing designers. Designers of great experiences and great programs. Really think about the simplicity of processes and policies, and execution becomes simple. They need to become great facilitators of change, explaining to people what something means. Give it relevance, give it substance. They need to become great coaches because you cannot assume that everybody in the line knows how to set goals, give feedback and have a development conversation, and they need to become phenomenal. Archeologists go digging and hunting for intelligence and insights, right? That's where HR, as the custodian, has a phenomenal role to play.
(24:05):
Secondary, right? The leader, they are the ambassador of change. They are the person that is there to connect with the team, know the team, be sensory to the team, be sensory to who they are, where they're from, where they live and how they want to work. And that's not easy today, right? The person coming into work is used to curating their experiences outside of work. We're autonomous creatures. If I open up an iPhone box tomorrow, there's no manual. I switch it on, I determine the apps, I determine how I use it. I won't say the name, but there are devices you have around your house where you say a person's name, and they play music in every room in the house that you want. But you are curating that experience. People are craving that autonomy. So the word ‘facilitation’ for me is a big one. Leaders and HR need to become amazing facilitators. And that, I think, is a big part. Listen, AI is going to revolutionize many aspects of your traditional transactional engine of an organization. It's going to revolutionize many of the processes, but the bit still remains that somebody has to make sure the ‘so what’, the achievement of the outcome, drives the outcome. So there's going to be a subtle, but really important shift, I think, in the next couple of years.
JD Dillon (25:28):
So let's wrap up our conversation by making a shift from the whys of advocacy to the hows. I'm curious if you see any strategies that companies are deploying or what we can tactically do to help employees advocate for your company even after they've left the organization.
Michael Esau (25:45):
I think what I've seen recently is, and it's not something new, JD, is the notion of a north star in terms of, this is the proposition, we are going to market and we're going to drive that proposition as is intended. We're going to communicate it greatly. I've not heard organizations speak so much about change management as I have recently because the penny is dropping. Change is really hard. It's really difficult. So I think the organizations that are clear on the proposition are communicating it brilliantly. They're enabling the organization to execute it, and the leaders are supported to deliver on it. Those are the ones for me that are winning. The organizations that don't have a proposition aren't clear on what the purpose is, they're not winning, and what's happening is that they're losing great people. Then, they can't replace them. Now that is when you have a problem, a real problem.
JD Dillon (26:51):
One piece I would add as well to connect the dots in terms of your points around management and leadership is if you're thinking about how to help people advocate in-role or after their in-role, that's another place where enabling, taking care of and prioritizing this type of conversation outside the HR box to management is critical. Becase that's the group of people who have the relationship, who interact day to day with individuals. Then after someone leaves the company, especially, that's the person who can still foster a connection point in addition to any peers or friends they had inside the company. It's a different kind of company that prioritizes their managers to sustain those types of relationships and to have that type of connection with their employees. It doesn't just happen. It happens in some cases when you have those amazing people, managers who are just as outstanding at the people side of the job.
(27:46):
But I don't think that comes naturally to a lot of people. It can be broken even for people who it comes naturally to if people are not prioritized in that direction. And I think nothing says more about a company than a manager who doesn't forget people when they're no longer on the team, who remembers that was a person I spent potentially years with, it's still their birthday next week. They're still doing great things out there. They still have the same family that we talked about so many times in the meeting room. How do we maintain the connections beyond the tactical things like alumni groups and that type of stuff? The human side of advocacy is where you really make a difference.
Michael Esau (28:27):
And JD, just one last comment. I work for SAP. We have a hundred thousand employees worldwide. It's a big organization. And just very quickly, I think this is important, you've got to think really hard about how you would think about advocacy. So we're asked two questions at SAP regularly, are you proud to work here? Is this a place that you would recommend to somebody else? Now, nobody can force you to say yes or no. When you see 90% proud and 92% would recommend it as a Great Place to Work, I go back to organizational health. You can go, we're in a good place because nobody can force you. So it's also about thinking about, and on our podcast, we spoke to the wonderful Helen Willetts at the BT group, and they're really thinking long and hard now about how they understand advocacy and how they measure advocacy. Because when people leave the BT group, they really do want them to be advocates. So that's the other dimension as well, is you deliver on the commitment, you deliver on the proposition, you make it happen, you deliver the promise and then you measure it effectively. And that's going to be really key. 
JD Dillon (29:44):
Michael, to connect the dots finally, proud to have had you here, recommend this conversation to everybody. Thanks so much for joining us on ITK. Can you let our loyal watchers and listeners know how they can connect with you and where they can tune into your podcast, the Human Factor?
Michael Esau (29:58):
Yeah. Thank you. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. Please connect with me on Twitter. You can see the address there for the Human Factor, we're about 40 episodes in and a ton more coming this year. It's available on all podcast channels. Do tune in, it would be great. But do reach out, please. It'd be lovely to connect with people.
JD Dillon (30:19):
Awesome. Thank you again so much to Michael Esau for joining us to advocate for the importance of advocacy in today's workplace. If you had a good time today, be sure to subscribe to ITK. Head over to Axonify.com/ITK to sign up for show announcements and reminders. You can also binge-watch the entire TK collection on the Axonify YouTube channel, or listen to In The Know on your favorite podcast app. And remember to come back in two weeks as we explore the use of video in training. We're going to be joined by Enrique Olives and Craig Kingsbury from Vyond, who will explain how AI is making video even more relevant, efficient and effective. Plus, we're going to share how Axonify is partnering with Vyond to overcome the limits of traditional off-the-shelf training. So join us on Wednesday, March 20th, at 11:30 AM Eastern for a media-focused discussion with Vyond. Until then, I've been JD. Now you're In The Know. And always remember to ask yourself the important questions: What did the loyal calculator say to the student? You can always count on me. I'll see you next time. In The Know is produced by Richia McCutcheon and visually designed by Mark Anderson. Additional production support by Andrea Miller, Maliyah Bernard, Tuong La and Meaghan Kay. The show is written and hosted by JD Dillon. ITK is an Axonify production. For more information on how Axonify helps frontline workers learn, connect and get things done, visit Axonify.com.