Reclaim Your Workplace from Toxic Leadership w/ Loren Sanders (Speaker, Author, Coach, Consultant)

How do you survive toxic leadership that goes beyond bad managers? We're talking the kind of leaders who bully, intimidate and exploit their teams, creating a work environment that erodes trust, damages relationships and undermines the well-being of employees. If you have a toxic leader, what are your options? And how can your organization protect the workplace so employees feel safe to do their best work in an environment that's fundamentally inclusive, trusting and supportive?

Loren Sanders shared some ideas on ITK! Loren is a coach, author and talent management consultant who helps non-HR people better understand how HR and business can work together to foster sustained organizational success. The author behind the book Empathy Is Not A Weakness: And Other Stories from the Edge joined JD to discuss ways to confront and combat toxic leadership for both professionals and organizations looking to overcome this unfortunate but common workplace obstacle.

• Watch the full video of this episode on the Axonify YouTube Channel.
• Grab a copy of Loren's book Empathy is Not a Weakness.
• Download Donald Taylor's 2024 L&D Global Sentiment Survey report.
• Get your copy of Forrester's Q4 2023 Learning Management System and Experience Platform Landscape Report.
• Watch Axonify's Supporting the Whole Human at Work session.
• Subscribe for ITK updates and show announcements at axonify.com/itk.
• Grab a copy of JD’s book - The Modern Learning Ecosystem - at jdwroteabook.com.

In The Know is brought to you by Axonify, the proven frontline enablement solution that gives employees everything they need to learn, connect and get things done. With an industry-leading 83% engagement rate, Axonify is used by companies to deliver next-level CX, higher sales, improved workplace safety and lower turnover. To learn more about how Axonify enables over 3.5 million frontline workers in 160-plus countries, in over 250 companies including Lowe’s, Kroger, Walmart and Citizens Bank, visit axonify.com.

Transcript

JD Dillon (00:14):
Hello friends, how are you doing today? It's great to see you and welcome to the 44th episode of In The Know, your 25-minute deep dive into the modern employee experience and what we can do to make it better. I'm JD from Axonify, and today's episode is all about bullies. I don't like bullies, but who does, right? I mean, bullies make you feel bad about yourself. They make you feel isolated. They make you feel like you can't do anything right, no matter how hard you try. And it's incredibly unfortunate that so many people had to deal with bullies growing up, including myself, but that's not where the story really ends. You see, sometimes the bullies from the schoolyard share a lot of the same traits as some of the people that we run into in the workplace as adults.
(01:03):
They intimidate, they exploit, they create environments that erode trust, damage relationships and undermine the well-being of employees. But at work, we don't usually call them bullies, we call them toxic leaders. And these are very unfortunate but a very real problem for far too many organizations. So, how do you overcome a toxic leader? What can your company do to make sure employees feel safe, respected and supported every single day? Well, we're going to ask someone who helps non-HR people understand how HR and business leaders can work together to foster sustained success. Loren Sanders is here to help us confront toxic leadership and help us learn more about her book, Empathy is Not a Weakness. Plus a few of our live LinkedIn viewers are going to have a chance to grab a copy of Loren's book later on in the show, so make sure to do that. Here's a copy right here. But before we welcome Loren, it's time for a special ITK News Break.
(02:02):
Got great theme music here on the show, but here are the latest headlines from the world of L&D and beyond. The results are in: the biggest story in the world is AI. Did you know it's the biggest story in L&D as well? That's according to Donald Taylor, who dropped the 2024 results of his annual global sentiment survey just this past week. The survey asks L&D pros from around the world what's going to be hot in the field this year. Not only is AI at the top of the list, but it has garnered an unprecedented 21.5% of the voting share. And then it's followed by topics like skills-based strategies, personalization and analytics, all of which have huge AI implications. So, if you want to get a full copy of the report, all you have to do is go over to Don's website and you can check out the full report for yourself. And if you want to see just how fast AI is evolving, look no further than Open AI's latest announcement, Sora. Sora is an AI model that creates video from text instructions. For context, I want to show you something. Here's an example of an AI-generated video that I shared at a conference less than a year ago, and yes, that's Will Smith eating spaghetti.
(03:17):
Here's a video generated by Sora that was announced last week. As you can tell, things have changed a little bit. We're progressing quite quickly, we still have a long way to go, but it's needless to say that digital creation is quickly transforming before our eyes. I have actually applied some of that AI magic during a webinar that I delivered in partnership with Training Magazine last week. And I just wanted to say thanks to the 800-plus learning and development pros who signed up to learn everything we can learn from Wile E. Coyote and share in the story of the modern learning ecosystem. I'm going to be sharing that story again next week at the Training 2024 conference that kicks off at the Walt Disney World Resort. So, if you're going to be in Orlando next week, be sure to stop by and say hello.
(04:00):
But I know not everyone can make it to Orlando next week. The weather's going to be really nice too. But if you can't make it next week, don't worry, you can hang out with me again online tomorrow when I'm going to join Erin Champion from Vyond to showcase how we're working together to help organizations maximize the value of their off-the-shelf content. Because you know how OTS content usually is just kind of me. It doesn't match your brand, your processes or even the specific language needs of your team members. Well, Axonify is working with Vyond and their AI-powered authoring tools to solve this problem with our brand-new Axonify Content Studio. You can learn more about this unique partnership between Axonify and Vyond tomorrow as we present leveraging AI to maximize the value of off-the-shelf content at 3:00 PM during the Training Industries Leader Talks.
(04:49):
So get all the details and register at trainingindustry.com. And if on-demand video is more your thing, you should head over to the Axonify YouTube channel right after this because you're watching on LinkedIn now. Then go over to YouTube and check out our latest video from AxoniCom 2023 because we just dropped our main stage session Supporting the Whole Human, which featured Russell Wigginton, President of the National Civil Rights Museum, alongside Mark Person from Dollar General and friend of the show Elizabeth Thompson from Intuitive Quest LLC. Russell, Mark and Elizabeth had a frank and practical conversation with our AxoniCom audience about what it takes to foster a culture of belonging within their companies. So be sure to check out the full 45-minute session at YouTube.com/Axonify when you're online. So, while you're there, head over to Axonify.com because you can grab our latest research report in partnership with Forrester. Forrester released a learning tech research report that takes a detailed look at 22 learning management and experience platforms and offers guidance that will help you find the right technology to support your team. So get a complimentary copy of Forrester's Report by heading over to Axonify.com. Big banner at the top of the website. Can't miss it. And finally, I have one more exciting announcement and it's for all Axonify customers out there because how would you like to hang out with me in New Orleans?
(06:12):
We're giving away an almost all-expenses paid trip to the ATD24 conference to one lucky member of the Axonify community. We're taking care of the flight, the hotel and the full conference registration. Plus, if this is your first time attending the biggest L&D show in the world, I'm going to help you through the planning process. To win, all you have to do is refer another organization that you think could benefit from Axonify. And the more referrals you submit, the more chances you have to win. The contest runs through March 14th, so reach out to your customer success manager for more details. I hope to see you in New Orleans this May. And that has been your ITK News Break for Wednesday, February 21st, 2024.
(06:55):
And now let's welcome our special ITK guest, Loren Sanders. Loren Sanders is an author, speaker, empathy coach, and fractional L&D strategist who strives to leverage people’s passions and talents to connect their professional development to business results. Loren also teaches organizational communication, effective leadership and strategic talent management as an adjunct faculty member at Lake Forest Graduate School of Management. Her book, Empathy is Not a Weakness: And Other Stories from the Edge is a guide for enhancing your leadership skills and transforming your company's culture, whether you're a seasoned leader or new to your management role. Loren Sanders, you're In The Know. How's it going?
Loren Sanders (07:30):
Good. If I had been planning ahead and knew that you were going to show Will Smith eating spaghetti, I would've had a plate here and been mouthing on spaghetti. Just to start us off.
JD Dillon (07:40):
I said to someone yesterday that the ultimate power move in a meeting, especially a virtual meeting, would be obnoxious in real life and in a physical meeting, but if you're in a virtual meeting just eating spaghetti, that is the ultimate power move in my opinion. But I digress. Let's dive into the topic for today. I want to get your perspective on what the difference is between a crappy manager and a toxic leader. What are some of the attributes that you'd use to define toxic leadership?
Loren Sanders (08:09):
Let me start by saying that sometimes toxic leadership and bad management overlap in practice, but they originate from two completely different sets of behaviors, and the impacts are vastly different. A crappy manager might be a terrible communicator, a bad delegator, might have a lack of organizational skills, might be completely unhelpful, but sometimes it can be a super fun manager that's completely ineffective. Their challenges typically come from a lack of competence or experience and not from malice. On the other hand, the toxic leader has behaviors that are intentionally harmful, manipulative and self-serving. They thrive on creating environments of fear, intimidation and instability. Do you remember back in the nineties, and I'm telling you how old I am now when we talked about kiss-up, kick-down leadership styles where they kiss up to the people above them and kick everything down to the people who report to them?
JD Dillon (09:12):
I wasn't there for it, but I am picking up what you're putting down.
Loren Sanders (09:15):
Alright, yeah. That kiss-up, kick-down leadership style, but paired with an inflated sense of self-worth. These leaders typically target talented and highly ethical employees because of their fear of being exposed as a fraud. They're ego-driven and insecure. They're willing to compromise people and organizations in order to maintain their power status. They undermine trust, they blame, they don't take responsibility, they don't take accountability and they show zero concern. And I want to be clear about this from an action perspective for the well-being of their team members. So they'll probably say the right things and then not do the right things. Some key signs for you: abusive behavior, manipulation, gaslighting, and that could be a whole podcast by itself exploiting people for their own personal gain, a genuine lack of listening or collaboration. Where I really like to tie this together is there's research from the National Institute of Health that actually categorizes the patterns of toxic leadership into four basic buckets: egotism, ethical failures, incompetence and neuroticism. They also note that organizational cultures might inadvertently excuse this behavior. What was even more interesting is a lot of the research shows the perception of toxicity can be influenced by social constructs, but also by gender. Women are more likely to view the leaders as toxic, men are more inclined to collude. I want you to digest that for a moment.
JD Dillon (10:57):
I'm willing to bet that everyone watching or listening right now, hopefully at least, says the attributes you highlighted in that kind of differentiation between bad management and toxic leadership, are bad things we don't want. The question goes beyond the baseline altruistic idea that, yeah, employees should feel respected at work. That makes sense to me. Why should organizations pay explicit attention to this idea of toxic leadership? How do we get people's attention by helping them understand how this notion is impacting their ability to achieve their goals and run their organizations?
Loren Sanders (11:39):
It goes beyond just the behavior. The impact of a toxic leader is beyond the basic expectation of maintaining respectful and caring work environments. The impacts can be profound and wide-ranging, affecting everything from employee well-being and mental health to the bottom line. When trust and safety are lacking, how are people supposed to innovate or collaborate? Not to mention, if there's an unspoken rule where toxic leadership is just accepted and promoted, you wind up with a culture of fear and people who are more concerned with avoiding negative repercussions than sharing ideas, and long-term, that's going to impact your recruiting, it's going to impact your retention, not to mention legal and compliance risks, your brand image, your reputation. And even if it's only in pockets, it can still undermine the strategic alignment of an entire organization. But I cannot stress this one thing enough. It's your heart attack. It is not theirs.
JD Dillon (12:39):
Absolutely. And I think the reality of the situation, especially in a large distributed organization, is that no one is in every room, no one's in every conversation. And it can be hopefully easy to spot a crappy manager because kind of all you have to do is look at the numbers and the KPIs and say, well, you're not hitting your goals. Something is wrong. And we need to have a conversation to figure out what that is. How do you spot a toxic leader, especially if they are good at hitting their accountability, they're good at hitting the results? How does an organization figure out that they have this problem before the dominoes start falling and it starts impacting the spreadsheet and the bottom line?
Loren Sanders (13:20):
You know how leaders talk about zooming in and zooming out, taking the strategic view, taking the granular view. Identifying toxic leadership really requires a more holistic approach. So, you have to look at both the behavior of the leaders but also the broader organizational context, which often gets missed. And being an L&D person, I'm a big fan of rubrics and observable metrics. The first thing would be leadership behavior by observation, one leading indicator. So, is there micromanagement? Is there excessive control with little room for autonomy, creativity or innovation? Is there only one right way? Does the team never seem to get to the point of what they're doing because the leader had some other idea in the shower? And now all of the work that's been done so far is trashed? Are people publicly criticized or humiliated? Again, back to the concern for people's well-being, lack of empathy, manipulative communications that are used to influence things or shift blame or the leader that says, yes, my team's going to do all of that, but I personally am not doing any of it.
(14:27):
I'm just going to shift it all down. That's one piece. If you've been to anything I've talked to, I always talk about return on environment. Environment plays a huge part. So, what does the environment look like? Are you listening to the employee feedback, formal and informal words that are used to describe the leadership team? A lot of people use those euphemisms because they're trying to tread lightly about what’s really happening. Turnover. Who's leaving? Are you losing your best people? Do you have presenteeism? Are people just kind of there? If you don't know what that is, or high absenteeism for jobs that track that, decreased performance. But there are also a lot of organizational health indicators, and please, for the love of all things, don't give me the engagement survey. Because it doesn't do what it's intended to do. And that's in a whole other podcast, too.
(15:22):
Beyond engagement, let's talk about values and behaviors that are promoted on teams. Let's talk about performance metrics and analysis of changes. If you look at the way organizations change their key performance indicators over time, you might be able to assess whether leadership practices or KPIs are undermining the team's effectiveness. Look at your grievance reporting, the frequency and the nature of that can tell you a lot. And then development programming and coaching. What opportunities exist for coaching, mentoring and development? What is the basis and the content of the leadership development programming? If you're looking at one size fits all, because we know how companies love out-of-the-box things, are they all aimed at looking at healthy practices? This really isn't a one-size-fits-all situation.
JD Dillon (16:10):
If I had to pick a theme for my week so far, it has been the challenge of the engagement survey and the limitations of that data as a proxy for meaningful measurement of employee experience. Because I made a point in a session that I did yesterday, which was as an operational manager, I was always measured based on business-related KPIs and never based on employee experience metrics and where people lean and am I allowed to do this? Your motivation, feel free. Those are important things, but at no point did anyone judge my ability as a manager based on my ability to retain staff, to engage staff, to create development opportunities for and career mobility for people. How many people got promoted from my team versus other teams? So the two things I picked up so far are we have to take a hard look at the metrics that we're using to measure people's performance on the job as related to leadership and management and make sure they're reflective of the experience of the employee team as well as the environment that might make it okay for some of these things or give people permission or at least cover to behave in certain ways that create this toxic leadership gap.
(17:22):
But the one thing we want to touch on is, alright, if we're doing these things, we're looking at meaningful metrics. We're really assessing the environment. Who fixes the problem? If you figure out that you have a toxic leadership issue, or there are certain individuals that are reflecting in that way, who steps in, especially if we're talking about senior management potentially being a problem?
Loren Sanders (17:47):
Well, addressing toxic leadership at the senior level is still a collective responsibility. It involves multiple layers of organizations. Of course, the common answer is going to be, well, it's the board of directors and then likely HR policy implementation that prevents toxic behavior and provides channels for employees to report issues confidentiality, but that doesn't always happen, right? We need to look at the investigations and allegations of toxic leadership and work with senior management to address and resolve those. But the reality is that toxic behavior that is tolerated becomes normalized. And I want to share some staggering data from the Workplace Bullying Institute and SHRM that highlights the prevalence of bullying and toxic leadership in the workplace. And I want to emphasize the importance of a collective effort being necessary to combat this. A significant portion of bullying is top-down. We know this, right? Did you know that there's a higher incidence of bullying towards remote employees, that there's a lack of federal laws that specifically target workplace bullying and that 31 states have enacted laws about bullying to prevent this from happening?
(18:59):
But a lot of research suggests that groups often mistakenly equate overconfidence with leadership ability, and that leads to the promotion of poorly suited people to leadership positions. One really interesting project that was done out of Ohio State University had groups that consistently elected the overconfident, incompetent person to lead a team. And what that means for you is that there's an increased likelihood that you're going to have to work for a toxic leader at some point in your career internationally, one in five employees say they've been bullied at work in the US. 48.6% of Americans say they've been exposed to bullying, 30% were directly impacted, 19% witnessed it. But what was even more staggering to me was that Gen Z, who you think would be most likely to speak up, was the least likely to report it, and Gen X was the most likely. So my question back to you, JD, is whose responsibility it is to deal with it, or who's most likely to deal with it? Because what we really need is transparent reporting in confidential and secure ways that colleagues actually trust without the fear of retaliation and including clear definitions and consequences along with better development programming. But that takes culture change.
JD Dillon (20:20):
The thing that's been echoing in my head throughout this conversation has been the importance of people leveraging their own influence and power to step in. I think there are direct correlations between this conversation and other types of toxic behavior just from a social perspective. But thinking about the fact that maybe you're not the manager in the room and maybe you're not leading this particular project, but if you're around when you see people behaving a certain way and assessing your ability to influence the situation, because maybe you're not a manager, but you're a very tenured person, you're a person who has people's ear, you're a person who has a level of respect with your peer group where maybe it is not directly impacting you, but it is your problem because you have the ability to elevate a conversation and to raise your hand in a certain way, because you can't necessarily act alone if you don't have an environment that's supportive of that.
(21:13):
I think it's an unfortunate default to say this is an HR problem. We definitely need the HR mechanisms, policies and outcomes in place, but it is one of those situations where it is a universal effort or unified effort required to agree on what we will stand for, what we will not stand for in an organization, and then for the people who have not necessarily the authority but the power to stand up and support and defend and take care of others, even if it's not in your job description to necessarily do that. But that's where I want to start to wrap our conversation up. If you're an individual employee, we're talking about the institutional, decision-making lot, and we need to put systems in place and measurement in place. Let's talk about one person, and maybe this conversation is way too familiar to someone out there right now and you're starting to figure out that you have a toxic leadership situation. What can an individual employee do to deal with this situation if they're maybe not working in an environment that gives them the mechanisms they need?
Loren Sanders (22:18):
The first thing is to document everything because you never know where things will land or if you'll be called upon to answer questions about it. Document the dates, the times, what was said, what was done and who witnessed it, in case you need to support something later, know what the policies and procedures are, but more importantly, find yourself a mentor or a coach who can help you. If you can find somebody who actually understands your organizational dynamics even better. Your coach can help you work through things. They don't give you answers, but they help you work through your own thinking about things. Your mentor can actually give you answers and offer advice or support. Sometimes, a great mentor with a little bit higher level can help you advocate for yourself and build your support network, but don't build it for drama. Exchanging memes during a terrible team meeting
(23:14):
Can be fun, but it can also lead to conversations that end up just being dramatic. Choose your network so that you can share collective insights and solutions. Don't choose it for drama. Take care of yourself, have hobbies, workout, music, whatever you do, create AI movies like JD. Set clear boundaries, limit the time that you spend with the person. There's a concept called Gray Rock, which is to be about as interesting as a gray rock so you get overlooked. Pattern-interrupt your own thinking so that you can respond instead of reacting if you're being screamed at, rather than push back, say, well, you might be right. And then you can redirect the conversation. Develop yourself, plan your exit. And above everything else, check yourself for toxic traits, because sometimes it's us and sometimes it's not always the leader. So check yourself and understand what that means.
JD Dillon (24:13):
Yeah, that's a great point to start to wrap up on, especially the importance of facilitating this conversation, asking these questions and bringing this up, not waiting for there to be a problem and identifying that there's a toxic leadership situation happening. How are we starting to assess the workplace, ask the questions if we have the right support mechanisms in place, the right measurements in place so that when that inevitable situation arises, we're ready to, and people feel empowered to deal with it, and not hopefully that they have to plan an exit. But if that's what you have to do, that's what you have to do. And you should feel empowered to do that. So Loren, thank you so much for your practical and straightforward insights into the toxic leadership challenge. But before we let you go, I want to share a bit about your book. Empathy is Not a Weakness. Rather than just talk about the book, I'd like to invite you to play ITK's favorite game and everyone out there can play along with us. That's right. It's time for Yours, mine, or Karl's.
Loren Sanders (25:11):
I'm a little scared and intimidated.
JD Dillon (25:13):
The rules of the game are simple: what I'm going to do is read a brief passage from a book. Loren, it’s up to you to tell me which book that passage comes from. Is it from your book, Empathy is Not a Weakness? Is it from my book, The Modern Learning Ecosystem? Or is it from Karl Kapp's book, Microlearning: Short and Sweet, because we put Karl Kapp on everything on In The Know. So, if you're watching live on LinkedIn right now, you can also play along. Just type who you think the author of each passage is into the LinkedIn chat. Write Loren, JD or Karl. And after we wrap up today's episode, we'll pick a couple of lucky commenters to receive a copy of Loren's book. So Loren, are you ready to play? Here's Yours, Mine or Karl’s. 
Loren Sanders (25:51):
I'm ready to play. 
JD Dillon (25:54):
Okay, here is our first passage: “One method frequently used by advertising agencies that can be easily copied by training and development is the use of a celebrity endorsement.” Who wrote that? Was it you? Was it me, or was it Karl Kapp?
Loren Sanders (26:09):
I'm going to say it was you.
JD Dillon (26:19):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Loren Sanders (26:20):
The answer was either you or Karl. I wasn't sure.
JD Dillon (26:23):
Karl. It's really a test of, do you remember your own book? If I played this game, I would fail it. But let's move on to the second passage. We're going to get this one. Here's the passage: “At least once a day, tell someone you appreciate them. This improves our mood, refreshes us and makes us better human beings.” Who wrote it? Was it you, me or Karl Kapp?
Loren Sanders (26:43):
That would be me.
JD Dillon (26:44):
That is correct. That is from your book. Empathy is Not a Weakness. Curious about what brought you to write this book at this time.
Loren Sanders (26:53):
The book is a reflection of my journey to be a better leader. There was a time when I was an awful leader. I might even say I was a toxic leader. I had a great leader who helped me recognize it and change what I was doing. And I took notes along the way. Talked to a lot of people. You hear a lot of their stories in the book and it's really, I noticed a lot of people were writing that empathy was important, but no one was telling anyone how to get it. No one was telling anybody what they needed to do to be better at it. And I will argue all day long that empathy is a practice, not a skill. And if you are not practicing it, you are getting worse.
JD Dillon (27:34):
Great point. And again, if you want a copy of Loren's book or a chance to get one, drop a comment in the LinkedIn chat right now, playing along with us as we head to the third passage. The passage is: “We do our best work when no one has to call for help. People may not know we're involved, but we're always there in the background, making sure Bruce Wayne has the tools he needs to be the best Cape Crusader he can be.” Who wrote it, you, me or Karl Kapp?
Loren Sanders (27:58):
That would be JD Dillon.
JD Dillon (27:59):
That is definitely me. Most Batman references per page of any learning and development book by far. Heading to our fourth passage here, this is a challenging one. “The spacing effect or spaced retrieval is an instructional concept that involves providing learners with content spaced over time and has been shown to be an effective tool for aiding retention.” Who wrote it? You, me or Karl?
Loren Sanders (28:21):
It could be you or Karl. So I'm going to go with Karl.
JD Dillon (28:24):
That is correct. Karl Kapp, Microlearning: Short and Sweet. Just to let everyone out there know, I originally had picked a passage from Karl's book in which Karl quoted me, and I thought that was a bit of a trick question because who wrote it, really? Was it the author of the book or the person who sent him the quote? Final passage for today, here it is. Last part of our game. Again, answers in the LinkedIn chat. You want a chance to get Loren's book? “You will be a better leader for having read it, and I have no doubt that you'll be thinking of the people you want to share it with as soon as you get to the last page. I know I did.” Who wrote it? You, me or Karl?
Loren Sanders (29:07):
You
JD Dillon (29:10):
Actually, it's from your book, but it's from the foreword written by Valerie Alexander.
Loren Sanders (29:15):
I had a feeling it was, and I was like, oh, I don't remember every word she wrote.
JD Dillon (29:20):
Slight trick. Slight trick. But that's all the time we have for Yours, Mine or Karl's. Loren, thank you so much for joining us today on ITK. How can people connect with you to follow the awesome work you're doing and grab a copy of Empathy is Not a Weakness?

Loren Sanders (29:34):
They can follow me on LinkedIn or reach out to me through LinkedIn. They can also go to loren365.com or they can order the book anywhere they order books from.
JD Dillon (29:48):
Awesome. Thank you again so much to Loren Sanders for helping us dive into the very real challenge of toxic leadership. And if you're watching live on LinkedIn, be sure to keep an eye on those DMS because you may be walking away with a copy of Loren's book. And if you had a good time today, be sure to subscribe to ITK. Head over to Axonify.com/ITK to sign up for show announcements and reminders. You can also binge-watch the entire ITK collection on the Axonify YouTube channel or listen to In The Know on your favorite podcast app. Be sure to come back in two weeks for a virtual trip across the pond because we're going to be joined by Michael Esau, Global HR Advisor with SAP. Michael and I are going to explore the concept of loyalty in today's workplace and why it's time for companies to shift their focus away from loyalty and toward advocacy. Be sure to throw a hold on your calendar for Wednesday, March 6th, at 11:30 AM Eastern to get a new perspective on employee engagement with Michael Esau. Until then, I've been JD. Now you're in the know. And always remember to ask yourself the important questions, like why was the scarecrow a great choice for team leader? Because he was outstanding in his field.
(30:55):
I'll see you next time. In The Know is produced by Richia McCutcheon and visually designed by Mark Anderson. Additional production support by Andrea Miller, Maliyah Bernard, Tuong La and Meaghan Kay. The show is written and hosted by me, JD Dillon. ITK is an Axonify production. For more information on how Axonify helps frontline workers learn, connect and get things done, visit Axonify.com.