"We don’t have time for learning!”
How many times have you heard this objection in your L&D career? There’s just too much going on in the operation to make time for L&D activities. Plus, people are already overloaded with compliance training. This means learning is often seen as a distraction from work rather than an essential part of the job.
How do we make learning a top priority, even in the busiest workplace? And how do we evolve the role of L&D from compliance-focused order takers to strategic business partners trusted to solve the organization’s biggest performance challenges?
In this episode of ITK, we're asking Dr. Keith Keating, Chief Learning & Development Officer at BDO Canada and author of the new book, The Trusted Learning Advisor. Keith will explain how L&D can live up to its full potential by establishing credibility with stakeholders, delivering value for organizations and positively impacting employees’ lives.
For more about why Axonify is the proven employee enablement solution that equips frontlines with the essential tools to learn, connect and get things done, visit https://www.axonify.com.
"We don’t have time for learning!”
How many times have you heard this objection in your L&D career? There’s just too much going on in the operation to make time for L&D activities. Plus, people are already overloaded with compliance training. This means learning is often seen as a distraction from work rather than an essential part of the job.
How do we make learning a top priority, even in the busiest workplace? And how do we evolve the role of L&D from compliance-focused order takers to strategic business partners trusted to solve the organization’s biggest performance challenges?
In this episode of ITK, we're asking Dr. Keith Keating, Chief Learning & Development Officer at BDO Canada and author of the new book, The Trusted Learning Advisor. Keith will explain how L&D can live up to its full potential by establishing credibility with stakeholders, delivering value for organizations and positively impacting employees’ lives.
For more about why Axonify is the proven employee enablement solution that equips frontlines with the essential tools to learn, connect and get things done, visit https://www.axonify.com.
JD Dillon (00:12):
Hi everybody. How are you doing today? It's great to see you. Welcome to the 43rd episode of In The Know, your 25-minute deep dive into the modern employee experience and what we can do to make it better. I'm JD from Axonify and today's episode is all about trust. Trust is at the heart of all great relationships. You always feel better when you trust the people around you and that they have your best interest in mind. But sometimes the person you trust packs up all their stuff, takes your dog, keeps the ring, and is never seen again.
(00:47):
Anyway. Trust isn't just important in personal relationships, it's also essential at work. Trust is what gets you included in the conversation. It's what gets you invited to the meeting, it gets you added to the project and it's what gets you the seat at the table. But people don't just give away their trust. You have to earn it even if you are the expert in the room. This is especially true for L&D professionals, because we may be here to help people do their best work and help our businesses achieve their goals, but we also ask for a lot along the way. We ask for time, we ask for attention, we ask for expertise. Most important of all, we ask for buy-in from everyone we work with, from the frontline workforce to the C-suite, as we try to architect exceptional learning cultures. So the question becomes: how do we build the trust that we need to make the jump from order takers to strategic business partners?
(01:39):
Well, our guest today has the answer. We're going to chat with Dr. Keith Keating, Chief Learning and Development Officer at BDO Canada and author of the new book, The Trusted Learning Advisor. Keith is going to show us how we can all become trusted learning advisors, plus a few of our live LinkedIn viewers are going to walk away with a copy of Keith's book. But before we welcome Keith to the show, I want to talk about jobs, specifically jobs in learning and development, because, for the past two years, I've been posting curated job lists on LinkedIn. You can follow the hashtag on LinkedIn #CoolLDJobs for my daily job postings, and I wasn't the first person to start doing this, I followed the lead of folks like Cara North because I know what tends to happen to learning and development during economic downturns, and I wanted to help out the best I can while showing people there are still opportunities out there even if things get really hard.
(02:34):
And I haven't had what you would call a typical L&D career. I'm very much an accidental L&D pro. I was an Operations Manager at AMC Theatres, where I also did all of the HR stuff for the team, and I decided that we needed a more structured way to onboard new staff. So, I designed my very first training plan based on my experiences up to that point. And that was 20 years ago. Since then, I've worked in a variety of different L&D roles, but I've never found my next opportunity in quite the same way. I've applied to jobs, I've been promoted into jobs, I've been recruited to jobs, I've created jobs that never existed before and I've also founded my own side gig. I know there are people out there struggling to find their next opportunity right now. Maybe you're unhappy with your current gig and you need to find something new or you are unfortunately impacted by a layoff and you need a landing spot, or perhaps you're thinking about a career change and L&D looks like a good fit.
(03:31):
Now, I don't have the answer for how to get the perfect job because it's often just as much about luck as it is about experience or capability, but I do have a few thoughts based on my untraditional L&D path that might be helpful for people who are trying to find that next gig. So, first of all, I want to emphasize that being great at L&D is not about technology. It's about knowing how to solve problems and tell powerful stories that motivate people to change. I didn't know much about L&D Tech when I first got started, but what I did know was how to craft a story that got people's attention and how to connect that story to the work that they did every day. Sure, I had to speed-learn and captivate to build my first e-learning module, but I became an ID without the technical side of the expertise.
(04:18):
So remember, just because you're good at software doesn't necessarily mean you're a great, impactful storyteller. I also want to recommend that you talk to the people who are doing the job that you want to do instead of listening to the thought leaders, find the people who are doing the work for real at the types of companies that you want to work for, and reach out on LinkedIn and ask for a quick chat to learn more about what they do and especially how they got there. Because in my experience, most people in L&D are pretty happy to say yes to helping out up here. I also want to stress that there's more than one door into a career in L&D specifically. You don't have to be an instructional designer to get started. My first L&D job was as a classroom facilitator at Disney.
(05:02):
I had the right mix of operational experience and speaking skills, so it was a good fit for me as I walked through the door. So know what you're good at and match those skills up against the different types of jobs that exist in L&D. And maybe you should start as an instructional designer, but you could step into the field as a systems administrator or a project coordinator, or maybe it's a job training type role. You may also want to consider working your way into L&D from another area within the organization if you can't get the job you're looking for right away. Because when I started at Disney, I was an attractions host at Star Tours. I didn't exactly wear that outfit, but my outfit had the same colors. If you've ever been on Star Tours, it took me over a year to earn my way into a management position and another year and a half before I found my first L&D role.
(05:50):
It can be difficult to outcompete internal talent for L&D jobs, especially given the fact that a lot of people, in the space without a formal credential or formal educational background, or if you have limited corporate learning experience, a company may not be willing to take a risk on someone they don't necessarily know. So consider applying your skills in different ways and then charting your path towards an L&D opportunity over time. And finally, I urge everyone to discover their own ways of contributing to the L&D community. I've spent the past 10 years exploring different ways to engage with my global L&D peers. In the beginning, I leaned heavily into Twitter and then started a blog, and then I started writing articles, going to conferences, delivering sessions and posting on LinkedIn. And now I do some stuff on YouTube and I'm always looking for my way to contribute to the conversation.
(06:41):
And people out there, they're going to tell you that you need to do certain things to stand out in a crowded marketplace. You need to have this kind of portfolio, you need to join this Facebook group or you need to post this many times on LinkedIn every week to get people's attention. I think you should consider those recommendations, but then you have to decide how you want to contribute, how you make connections and how you can grow yourself as an L&D professional, how you ultimately stand out and find your place in really any field. Those are just a few thoughts and ideas that have been helpful for me as I've explored new opportunities during my career, and I hope they're useful to you as well. Be sure to follow me on LinkedIn for curated job postings every day. And I wish you the best of luck in finding your next opportunity. But now let's welcome our special ITK guest, Dr. Keith Keating. Keith stands at the forefront of educational innovation with an L&D career that spans more than two decades, a transformation from a high school dropout to a distinguished doctorate holder from the University of Pennsylvania. Keith's journey is a testament to the transformative power of education, and today, he's a lecturer at Penn, a Chief Learning and TalentOofficer who partners with leading Fortune 500 companies and the acclaimed author of the book The Trusted Learning Advisor, Dr. Keith Keating. You're In The Know. How are you doing?
Dr. Keith Keating (07:58):
I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. Although I don't know that I feel like I'm In The Know, maybe I want to be in the know or it feels like I'm on the know with you.
JD Dillon (08:07):
Oh, man. Now it's already a deep conversation we're having, but let's take it even deeper. Since the doctor is in the house, I want to talk about a challenge I've been having, Keith. For as long as I've been in L&D, when people from outside learning and development ask me what I do, I have had a really hard time answering that question because people don't necessarily seem to get L&D. They may not know accounting principles and what accountants do every day, but they seem to kind of get other professions like accounting in a way that they don't necessarily always get ours. And I know we don't have as much rigor when it comes to certifications or specific degree requirements. And I say, as a person who's never taken a class in this kind of stuff, I've just been doing the work. So it makes me wonder, I'm interested to get an opinion. Is learning and development actually a profession? What do you think?
Dr. Keith Keating (09:01):
I think there are two parts to that answer. First of all, yes, I think it is, let me give you some academic reasons. One, we have a specialized body of knowledge. We have skills, we have practices that could pertain to ethical standards like accounting. We have ongoing professional development, we have professional associations and we can have a significant impact on organizational success. So, to answer the question, in theory, yes, I think we can be ultimately. I think it comes down to each one of us and how we treat it. And I don't think that all of us treat it like a profession. Some do others. So, in theory, yes, it's a profession, but it also is how we treat it.
JD Dillon (09:48):
I'm with you. I'm with you. So, there are tens of thousands of people around the world who work with learning and development. Most employees out there either work directly with us in job training or engage with content that we create. A lot of times, they might be required to play with us. So why doesn't it feel like L&D often has the same level of credibility and the same level of trust that other workplace functions may have?
Dr. Keith Keating (10:13):
That's a really great question. Let me just check chapter six. Just kidding. I think it is because some people haven't developed the credibility yet and the trust. I know for the first 10 years, you talked a few minutes earlier about how we all have different kinds of paths and you're an accidental L&D practitioner. I'm an accidental one. I think the majority of the people are probably accidental. I don't know anybody who ever grew up thinking, oh, I want to be in L&D. So for me, the first 10 years, I didn't have that respect. I didn't have the credibility for it and I didn't treat it like an industry with the respect that it deserves. And so I'm raising my hand to say I'm accountable. I'm still doing my penance for that. But there are some other factors at play here for why we're not treated that way.
(11:01):
One, everyone mostly has a universal experience with learning. There's this idea of, I went through school, I sat through a class before, I know what to do. You guys just read content and tell people, and they think that that's their association of their experience with learning. So we've got this universal experience with learning. We've got a lack of visible credentialing. You walk into your doctor's office and normally, on the wall, you see all of their credentials. You're like, wow, look how experienced and credentialed they are. Unless we print out ours, if we have them and carry them around, a lot of people don't necessarily know that we have those credentials. Then we've got our outcomes and our measurements and the challenge that can come along with identifying those. We've got the diverse entry path to L&D like you said, and I think we've got an underestimation of complexity. Long story short, there would be all those answers. Then, I would say the last one is the lack of support from leadership in organizations, and ultimately, many people aren't behaving like trusted learning advisors.
JD Dillon (12:11):
So, what do you think is holding us back from closing those gaps? From building that credibility, positioning ourselves as the experts and then backing up that conversation. So people see that, yes, everyone has an experience with learning. People have different educational backgrounds, but they don't necessarily know what we know or they don't have the depth of expertise or ability to solve the problems in the same types of ways that we can bring to the table. What's holding us back from building the credibility and the trust? Is it us? Is it them? Is it something else? Where should we be looking? Or D, all of the above.
Dr. Keith Keating (12:48):
I think it's D, all of the above. There are a number of outside influences that determine our success in L&D. For example, where do we sit in the organization? Are we in HR? Are we outside of HR? Are we in the business units that can have a significant impact on how the organization views us and our credibility? Then there's just how people see us: are we a cost center, an expense or revenue-generating? A lot of times, it's tough to get the resources that we need to really show and demonstrate our value. Are we aligned in L&D with the big-picture goals of our business stakeholders? I talked to a lot of practitioners and I was one of these, I had my idea of what I thought needed to be done, so I'm kind of running down this path separate from what was actually needed in the business.
(13:44):
So that keeps that wall or that barrier up for them seeing our value. Are we keeping up with the pace of change? Business evolves quickly. People are evolving quickly, technology is evolving quickly. Like Gen AI, we should be the driving force or a driving force or at the frontline of gen AI. And I still see a lot of practitioners kind of sitting back saying, yeah, I'll kind of figure this out a little bit later. But our role, in my opinion, is to be holistically embedded in the organization, bringing business units together, bringing problems together and trying to solve, even if it's not necessarily an L&D problem. And so we look at gen AI, I want to be at the forefront in driving those conversations, and I just don't think we're stepping up to the plate if you will. Do we have leadership? And then lastly, I would say culture. Is there a culture that supports learning? A lot of people say, well, we don't have a learning culture. Well, a lack of learning culture is still a learning culture potentially. It's just a really bad one. So I think all of those factors are really keeping us at, in a nutshell, it's alignment, perception, communication, keeping up with change, proving our impact, getting leadership, buy-in and fostering the right culture.
JD Dillon (15:04):
And I know this isn't necessarily a certainty your guarantee, but in my experience and similar conversations with other organizations, my relationship with the organization and my ability to do my job is meaningfully different based on who I report to. So when I've reported to the COO or an operational entity, Vice President of Park Operations, whatever that individual may be, I've had a very different relationship with the organization than when I've been aligned into the HR side of the business. And I don't think it's necessarily going to be true of everybody. I think it depends on how the organization is structured and what problems are prioritized by different departments. But if we had to ask, what's one thing to look directly at in terms of our ability to be more strategic and more aligned and just more connected to the pace of an organization, the problems that are really impacting people? For me, I think it starts with looking at where this function of enablement is. I also have a question with the word learning, but where's this kind of idea of performance enablement sitting, and how close to the performance are we really, that's just my experience
Dr. Keith Keating (16:12):
And I think it's part of the overall struggle. So your initial question was about accounting, accounting or even it is almost a copy-paste situation, whatever organization you go to, the formulas, the structure, what's happening in there. For us, there's this nebulous universal curiosity and also unknown about what are we in learning and development. Are we training? Are we talent development? Do we sit in HR, outside HR, part of the business? Where does the funding come from? There are so many of these outside factors that are contextualized to each individual organization, and that's where I think the real complexity comes in. What I did at GM cannot be replicated at Archway. What I did at Archway can not be replicated at BDO. It's like I have these foundational skills, but I have to stop and figure out where the organization is and how to meet the organization where they are while using the skills underneath. So it's contextualized to every different organization.
JD Dillon (17:19):
That's one of the things I get out of when I mentioned earlier in the show that I curate job postings every day. I've read over the last two years, hundreds of learning and development job postings for all different types of positions in different parts of the world. And what's been interesting is how different they are and how if I post five jobs today that are all instructional designer jobs, they're not going to have the same skill requirements, the same responsibilities or priorities. And I think that's where we start to struggle with that question of professional accountability and consistency when it comes to how people interpret the value that we can bring, the capability that we can bring and the skills that we bring to the conversation. Because saying that you want to be a strategic business partner is one thing, but having the ability to do it is something different. So, what would you say are the skills that L&D professionals really need to emphasize in order to be looked at as trusted advisors by business partners?
Dr. Keith Keating (18:11):
You've already hit on the first one, which is strategic thinking and business acumen. It is so important to take a step back and to learn your business, learn their vocabulary and their language. Consultative skills. That's what I'm focusing on right now with my L&D team at BDO. But even just everyone at BDO is helping to build up the idea that we are all consultants, we are all advisors. We have the opportunity to be, so what are those skills? Data-driven decision-making, change management, communication, learning agility, leadership influencing and building relationships. There are a ton of skills, but at the end of the day, I think the foundation of them is the idea of consultancy advisory. It really comes back to relationships, communication and building trust.
JD Dillon (19:06):
And the one I would definitely add is an ability to connect what we do and what we know to the reality of what people do every day. You can sit down based on learning principles and a rigorous understanding of pedagogy and these types of ideas, but if that understanding tactically doesn't match how people do their job every day, it really doesn't matter. And how often do we get to do the perfect thing versus the thing that makes the most sense to try to solve the problem given the kind of box that we're playing within as we try to influence people to kind of change the shape and grow that box a bit? So when it comes to skills, we want to help everyone out there improve their skills so they can become trusted learning advisors. So what we're going to do is we're going to give a couple of people a copy of your book.
(19:49):
So, if you want to copy your very own copy of the Trusted Learning Advisor and you're watching right now on LinkedIn Live, drop the keyword trust in the LinkedIn chat. We're going to select a random few people after today's show to get a copy of Keith's book and then we'll reach out to you on LinkedIn later this week. So, while I think everyone out there is going to agree with the idea of making the shift from order taker to strategic partner is important, one thing I like to point out is that it's not actually entirely up to us. So one of the things about relationships is it's a two-sided conversation. So what would you say about the stakeholders who maybe don't want people to act from an L&D perspective as consultants and as strategic partners and they want L&D to play the order taker role and just to get the required training done on time? How should we think about that situation, and can we influence those people to think differently about the value we can provide?
Dr. Keith Keating (20:42):
I think the first thing is you've got to respect people where they are, and you have to acknowledge that. I had a coaching call earlier today with somebody and he explained right off the bat, I'm in this environment. We're a profit center, and we just want to sell as much as we can, and they don't really care about training. How do I change that? You've already identified the business, this is the actual way that business functions. You can try and influence pieces of that, but are you going to be able to change that model and that mindset? Probably not. So I think it's important to recognize resistance is absolutely part of the game, and sometimes it feels like it's easier just to acquiesce and give in and maybe just take those orders. But I would say that taking a step back and trying to look at what's the source of the resistance, what's the why, trying to understand that aspect.
(21:33):
So, there are a couple of key things to think about. One, what's the status of my relationship? Is this a brand-new relationship, or is this an existing one? I'm in a new role at BDO, I am not pushing back. I am probably saying yes much more now than I would later on because I've got to build up that credibility. I've got to build up that respect and that trust before I start to drop all of the training bombs on them. A couple of other questions. Is this a fire? Does my stakeholder need me to react? Now, if you think JD, if your house is on fire, you wouldn't want me to step back and say, well, did you leave the stove on? Let's do a needs analysis. Was it arson? Did you have something plugged in? No, you'd want me to get water and help you put the fire out to minimize the damage.
(22:18):
Sometimes, our stakeholders need that as well. Is this a check-the-box exercise? That's a question I will ask them directly. Like, look, do you really just need to get this done because you don't care about it? Worked at this Fortune 500 company. We had this multimillion-dollar rollout and I'm trying to talk about needs analysis and behavior changes and measuring outcomes, and no one cared. And I was just really frustrated over and over again. Finally, I said, do you care? Is this just a check-the-box exercise? And they said, get it done. It's a tick the box. We don't care. We're not really trying to change the behavior. Okay, we've got that open communication, we've level set. I know what you need, and I'll help you get it done. The last question is, are they an order taker, too? And this took me a long time to think about and recognize this, but oftentimes somebody tells somebody, that somebody comes and tells us what this order is, and then we're trying to push back and needs analysis and we need this and we need this. And they're like, just, no, I'm an order taker too. So, is resistance a reality? Absolutely. What can you do about it? Have open communication, try and assess the situation to figure out is the time for me to try and change their mind and negotiate influence, or is this just something I need to get done to build that credibility? Even though I may not like this, I may not agree. Sometimes, we just have to get those things done.
JD Dillon (23:39):
In these types of situations, influencing people across the organization who have all of these different backgrounds and baggage associated with the role of learning and development, influences them to think differently and maybe appreciate different types of approaches. It's not going to happen overnight. In my case, it often took years to build that kind of trust. So, with a journey that takes time, I know that people out there are kind of itching to say, I'm going to get started with this transition so I can maximize the impact that I have on the organization that my team has on the people we support. So, what's one thing that you would suggest learning and development professionals do today to start making this transition to a trusted learning advisor? Of course, besides reading your book.
Dr. Keith Keating (24:19):
So I just want to clarify. I can only say one. One. I have several. Okay. If I just had to pick one off the top of my head, what I would say is to spend time conducting qualitative research or empathetic research. Do you know design thinking, or do you want me to say it a different way? Just talking with your learners, with your business, with your stakeholders, to understand them, understand the challenge of the situation that they're in, understand the way that they operate, conduct this qualitative research so then you can distill down all of that data to help you identify and uncover a problem that you may not have known exists. A, you're able to identify a potential problem. B, you're capturing all of this data to truly understand your stakeholders and their business so that then you can look for keywords or key problems and start to share those back to your stakeholders. This was the best way that I've been able to help my stakeholders see me or help evolve past being an order taker to, oh, Keith actually does know my business.
JD Dillon (25:25):
Yeah, agreed. A great place to start. And now we're almost out of time. So we've talked about the book. We talked about a perspective on how l and d pros can become trusted learning advisors. We've even given away a couple of copies of the book, but before we let you go, let's learn a little bit more about Keith because it's time for the famous ITK lightning round. So, Keith, you have 30 seconds to answer five random questions. Are you ready?
Dr. Keith Keating (25:52):
Ready.
JD Dillon (25:53):
Keith? Does ketchup belong in a hot dog?
Dr. Keith Keating (25:56):
Ketchup. No. Hotdogs are disgusting.
JD Dillon (25:58):
Wow, just going there, aren’t you? Let's hear about that.
Dr. Keith Keating (26:01):
30 seconds. Come on
JD Dillon (26:02):
If you could only listen to one song for the rest of your life, what would it be?
Dr. Keith Keating (26:06):
Stars are Blind by Paris Hilton.
JD Dillon (26:08):
Look it up, everybody. Is it better to be smart, or is it better to be lucky?
Dr. Keith Keating (26:13):
I'm going to say smart because smart can actually enhance your ability to be lucky.
JD Dillon (26:18):
There you go. Keith, who's your favorite Disney character and why?
Dr. Keith Keating (26:22):
Bambi, his mom died. My mom died. He faced a world of challenges and uncertainty. I feel like I faced a world of challenges and uncertainty, and have resilience, and it's a coming-of-age story.
JD Dillon (26:32):
There it is. And finally, Keith, what's the best part of your job?
Dr. Keith Keating (26:37):
Helping other people unlock their human potential?
JD Dillon (26:41):
There it is. Keith, thank you so much for joining us today on ITK. How can people connect with you, follow the work that you're doing, and also, of course, grab a copy of The Trusted Learning Advisor?
Dr. Keith Keating (26:51):
LinkedIn is probably the best way.
JD Dillon (26:54):
There it is. And you have a book website, too, right there on the bottom of the screen. TheTrustedLearningAdvisor.com. Be sure to check that out as well. Thanks so much again to Keith Keating for joining us and helping us all become trusted learning advisors. And if you're watching Live on LinkedIn, be sure to keep an eye out on your messages because you may be walking away with a copy of Keith's book. And if you had a good time today, be sure to subscribe to itk. Head over to Axonify.com/ITK to sign up for show announcements and reminders. You can also binge-watch all the past episodes of itk on the Axonify YouTube channel or listen to In The Know on your favorite podcast app. Axonify also just dropped our latest microlearning guide. This one's all about applying microlearning to reduce safety incidents, increase compliance and retain employees in distribution and logistics.
(27:40):
If you want to boost your team's knowledge while keeping the operation moving, head over to Axonify.com/distroguide. We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new conversation about the ever-changing world of work. We're going to be joined by Loren Sanders, author of the book, Empathy Is Not A Weakness and Other Stories From The Edge. Loren and I are going to talk about overcoming the challenge of toxic leadership within your organization. So be sure to throw that calendar hold on Wednesday, February 21st at 11:30 AM Eastern for an empathy-packed conversation with Loren Sanders. Until then, I've been JD. Now you're In The know. And always remember to ask yourself the important questions like: why should you never trust a marine biologist? I don't know what it is, but something about them always seems a little fishy. I'll see you next time. Bye. In The Know is produced by Taylor Sate and visually designed by Mark Anderson. Additional production support by Richia McCutcheon, Andrea Miller, Maliyah Bernard, Tuong La, Meaghan Kay and Sam Trieu. The show is written and hosted by JD Dillon. ITK is an axonify production. For more information on how axonify helps frontline workers learn, connect and get things done, visit Axonify.com.